For me, Madame Bovary and Middlemarch fall into that category. Neither of them were particularly enjoyable reading experiences but I gained something from both of them (and it's crazy to me how much they are referenced in other works & now I pick up on them all!).
Ok that’s something I hadn’t considered! This is a new check mark in the positive column. I read madame bovary a very long time ago so it’s almost as if I didn’t read it at all though
It took me two summers to finish The Count of Monte Cristo because I borrowed the CDs from the library via interlibrary loan, and listened in my car while driving back and forth across the state. I kept having to renew the CDs, then run out of renewals, wait 10 days, reorder, and so on. When one of the CDs got stuck in my van's player and I had to have the mechanic pull it out, I nearly gave up. Instead purchased it via audible with a different narrator. I am SO GLAD I did. Even adjusting to a new voice was worth it. It will forever be one of my top favorite reads of all time.
OTOH - I've tried, really tried, to read As I Lay Dying (Faulkner). I fall asleep every. single. time.
BTW - I love the chart! I don't think I've seen it before, but I'm adding it to my reading journal. TY
What an absolute struggle to get Cristo finished - I’m laughing at disc stuck in the cd player, today’s kids will never know what we went through. Life is too short for books that put us to sleep tho ☺️
For me, the challenging book was War & Peace by Leo Tolstoy (I know, I know). I was a precocious 15 year old who'd just finished reading Anna Karenina and loved it, so it seemed logical to read War & Peace next. The book took me months to chip away at, and I could only read 10-20 pages at a time because of the complexities of the characters, events, and language. It was such an accomplishment to finish it and, having labored through it, I ended up studying Russian cultural history in college. I'm planning to re-read it in the near future.
I also read The Wind Up Book Chronicles. Also took me a long time to finish it but it did not pay off well in the end IMO. I hated it hahaha but beautiful, beautiful writing. Love those scenes where our MC just stares out at the sky while he was on that house with the well.
So good! I have never seen this concept charted out. I've been embarrassed about which books I lose interest in so it's freeing to see you chart some extremely popular books in the bottom left.
Love this! It reminded me of my 'book hangover' chart that I have on my Storygraph - which is basically your quadrants translated to how long it stays with me after I finish the book. Quadrant 4 would translate to any books under a week, 3 anything from a week to a couple of months. The 2nd quadrant is a couple of months to 6 months +, and 1 would be a book that stayed with me for a year or more!
Big Johnny Strange fan here! I read it for the second time last year with a book group and it was even better second time around.
The Wind-up Bird Chronicle was my first Murakami and I've since read a bunch more. My favourite is Kafka on the Shore.
The one book that sticks in my mind as being one that I'm glad I finished is Les Misérables. I got close to quitting, but somehow persevered. It was a long time ago now and before I'd ever seen the show or movie musicals. Now I love those too!
Similar experience with The Wind Up Bird Chronicles. I'd say I didn't like it because the descriptions of violence were too much for me, but I do like Murukami. Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of The World was higher on the enjoyment scale for me.
Nightwood by Djuna Barnes was one of the difficult reads that really stick with me. We had to read it in college, and I couldn't get into it until a friend told me, "You have to stop trying to understand what's happening, then you'll love it." She was right.
Also, first time seeing your quadrant, and now I want to hear your experience with Addie Larue! Schwab is one of my favorite authors, and I understand some of the critiques of Addie (it really lags in the middle and is somewhat repetitive). Her experience of being forgotten struck such a cord in me that it will always be a favorite. I also wanted to linger in the story just for the prose. That book is a long summer evening that never seems to end for me (in the best way--with a croissant and a bit of magic lol). Did you write about it here?
The violence in Wind Up was very intense I agree. I am looking forward to trying another Murakami that is less so.
Great advice about Barnes, I feel the exact same way about Clarice Lispector - sometimes just letting it flow is better than trying to understand every word.
With Addie, I just really hated being in her head. There wasn't enough meat to the story and I got a little bored - I wanted way more of that demon lover lol. I liked her Shades of Magic trilogy better. I wrote more about my feelings and the quadrant in this piece on not liking a popular novel https://subverse.substack.com/p/when-you-dont-enjoy-a-popular-novel
Crime and Punishment was a slow, plodding burn for me. Ultimately glad I finished it as I feel like that was very intentional pacing by Dostoevsky, and I felt I really got into the mind of a criminal going mad.
Really want to try Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell (did I get that right?), but I’m just in no mood for a tome of any sort. Reading James now and loving it.
I'm stuck 30% into Crime and Punishment and I WILL go back to it, probably after Middlemarch. Jonathan Strange will be there whenever you feel the pull - i recommend in the winter when the nights are long - glad to hear you are loving James its spectacular !
I might not have finished The Golden Notebook by Doris Lessing (a classic; long) if not for a book club deadline and I was very, very glad I did. One of those books that accumulates meaning and enjoyment slowly. A BIG book.
I’d say some of the writing that hardest for me is from Alice Munro or Mavis Gallant. There are these vignettes of normal, everyday life which feel quietly devastating… I see the arch of a life and feel completely overwhelmed. Sometimes I have to put the book aside for a time because it’s too piercing
I loved the wind to bird chronicle but I think your description is spot on— fragmented, disembodied at times. Yet the dream-like elements are counterbalanced by extremely visceral scenes like the man skinned alive. I had never thought of the book as “terrifying” before but now that you say it, it feels true.
Do you have any other rec’s for books in this realm? I’ve read a lot of Murakami and some Yoko Ogawa. I also like Marquez and Allende. But I have not been reading much lately… it’s been years since I was really immersed in a good book. I am looking for some inspiration
Another favorite is David Mitchell - he’s less violent but right in the same vein. Cloud Atlas is his most famous, probably the most similar and very good. I’ve also seen Murakami compared to Ozeki but I haven’t read her yet!
tomorrow x 3 being not enjoyable is a wild choice (I type this respectfully), I loved that book! but I do agree it didn't challenge me to grow/think - my experience was contained to the time I was reading the book. What didn't you like about it?
I actually wrote a piece on this - when you don't enjoy a popular novel, because I needed to work through my feelings about it! For whatever reason, it didn't move me, the characters felt two-dimensional, and sad in a way that was unearned. I've come to realize (thanks to John Warner on Substack) that I don't like a lot of upmarket fiction because it doesn't get deep enough to be literary fiction, or plot-forward enough to be genre fiction - sometimes it's a weird middle ground that is committed to neither and I'm uncomfortable there. Totally see why its a favorite though, the video game angle was very unique! As a 90s kid I appreciated that part
thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! I was just about to ask you if you had written anything on why you don't like upmarket fiction, I'm excited to read your article! I don't think the characters are very two dimensional in Tx3 (I wonder how you feel about A Little Life if you think their sadness was unearned - I couldn't get up from my bed after reading it) I think there was something about the characters that felt naïve in the story though but I found this quite comforting. And yes, totally agreed for the video game aspect!
You've got me thinking so hard here, but it has been a while since I've read it!
I didn't understand their motivations in Tx3. Like in Normal People, I knew why Marianne and Connell did what they did. This quote “Marianne had the sense that her real life was happening somewhere very far away, happening without her, and she didn’t know if she would ever find out where it was and become part of it.” or: “We could be in a room full of people and my eyes would always meet his, just to find that he had already been looking.” I FEEL that.
A lot of the passages in Tx3 were more vague, generalized like this one, not internalized: “Long relationships might be richer, but relatively brief, relatively uncomplicated encounters with interesting people could be lovely as well. Every person you knew, every person you loved, even, did not have to consume you for the time to have been worthwhile.” Or: “Why wouldn’t you tell someone you loved them? Once you loved someone, you repeated it until they were tired of hearing it. You said it until it ceased to have meaning. Why not? Of course, you goddamn did.” This is clearly a generalized argument itself, and I am choosing passages that support my argument, but after scanning quotes in Goodreads, it feels representative.
A Little Life, on the other hand, we were SO deep in their heads and lives, it was like a toxic relationship. I'm not sure anything can be compared to the experience of reading that novel lol. 😯
What a great post, you really made me start looking at certain books differently! I've had to teach myself to DNF books, as I would usually push myself through them no matter what - but there is a balance to it, and some books might be worth that extra struggle ✨
For me, Madame Bovary and Middlemarch fall into that category. Neither of them were particularly enjoyable reading experiences but I gained something from both of them (and it's crazy to me how much they are referenced in other works & now I pick up on them all!).
Ok that’s something I hadn’t considered! This is a new check mark in the positive column. I read madame bovary a very long time ago so it’s almost as if I didn’t read it at all though
I am still deliberating Middlemarch, it seems like such a tall order! Do you mind sharing what you gained from them?
I am still deliberating Middlemarch, it seems like such a tall order! Do you mind sharing what you gained from them?
Reading Middlemarch now
It took me two summers to finish The Count of Monte Cristo because I borrowed the CDs from the library via interlibrary loan, and listened in my car while driving back and forth across the state. I kept having to renew the CDs, then run out of renewals, wait 10 days, reorder, and so on. When one of the CDs got stuck in my van's player and I had to have the mechanic pull it out, I nearly gave up. Instead purchased it via audible with a different narrator. I am SO GLAD I did. Even adjusting to a new voice was worth it. It will forever be one of my top favorite reads of all time.
OTOH - I've tried, really tried, to read As I Lay Dying (Faulkner). I fall asleep every. single. time.
BTW - I love the chart! I don't think I've seen it before, but I'm adding it to my reading journal. TY
What an absolute struggle to get Cristo finished - I’m laughing at disc stuck in the cd player, today’s kids will never know what we went through. Life is too short for books that put us to sleep tho ☺️
For me, the challenging book was War & Peace by Leo Tolstoy (I know, I know). I was a precocious 15 year old who'd just finished reading Anna Karenina and loved it, so it seemed logical to read War & Peace next. The book took me months to chip away at, and I could only read 10-20 pages at a time because of the complexities of the characters, events, and language. It was such an accomplishment to finish it and, having labored through it, I ended up studying Russian cultural history in college. I'm planning to re-read it in the near future.
the struggle was worth it then right! I read Anna Karenina in college "for fun" - I love the confidence we have as teens/young adults.
I loved Salvage the Bones!
A remarkable book!
I also read The Wind Up Book Chronicles. Also took me a long time to finish it but it did not pay off well in the end IMO. I hated it hahaha but beautiful, beautiful writing. Love those scenes where our MC just stares out at the sky while he was on that house with the well.
Totally fair!!! Maybe part of it for me is I’m happy I can say I read at least one Murakami 😆
I felt the same about this one. Hard Boiled Wonderland is better imo!
ohhh thanks. I’ll try to look it up.
So good! I have never seen this concept charted out. I've been embarrassed about which books I lose interest in so it's freeing to see you chart some extremely popular books in the bottom left.
The more I’m on Substack and realize that I have different opinions from the majority and vice versa and it keeps things interesting! 🙃
Love this! It reminded me of my 'book hangover' chart that I have on my Storygraph - which is basically your quadrants translated to how long it stays with me after I finish the book. Quadrant 4 would translate to any books under a week, 3 anything from a week to a couple of months. The 2nd quadrant is a couple of months to 6 months +, and 1 would be a book that stayed with me for a year or more!
there is a BOOK HANGOVER CHART! I keep forgetting to use storygraph, i get lost sometimes in their interface.
I created it myself as a Plus member, so I'm not sure it exists for other members 😀
Big Johnny Strange fan here! I read it for the second time last year with a book group and it was even better second time around.
The Wind-up Bird Chronicle was my first Murakami and I've since read a bunch more. My favourite is Kafka on the Shore.
The one book that sticks in my mind as being one that I'm glad I finished is Les Misérables. I got close to quitting, but somehow persevered. It was a long time ago now and before I'd ever seen the show or movie musicals. Now I love those too!
I have yet to read Kafka on the Shore but I think it will be my next Murakami! and cheers to you for finishing Les Mis that is one hefty SOB
Similar experience with The Wind Up Bird Chronicles. I'd say I didn't like it because the descriptions of violence were too much for me, but I do like Murukami. Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of The World was higher on the enjoyment scale for me.
Nightwood by Djuna Barnes was one of the difficult reads that really stick with me. We had to read it in college, and I couldn't get into it until a friend told me, "You have to stop trying to understand what's happening, then you'll love it." She was right.
Also, first time seeing your quadrant, and now I want to hear your experience with Addie Larue! Schwab is one of my favorite authors, and I understand some of the critiques of Addie (it really lags in the middle and is somewhat repetitive). Her experience of being forgotten struck such a cord in me that it will always be a favorite. I also wanted to linger in the story just for the prose. That book is a long summer evening that never seems to end for me (in the best way--with a croissant and a bit of magic lol). Did you write about it here?
The violence in Wind Up was very intense I agree. I am looking forward to trying another Murakami that is less so.
Great advice about Barnes, I feel the exact same way about Clarice Lispector - sometimes just letting it flow is better than trying to understand every word.
With Addie, I just really hated being in her head. There wasn't enough meat to the story and I got a little bored - I wanted way more of that demon lover lol. I liked her Shades of Magic trilogy better. I wrote more about my feelings and the quadrant in this piece on not liking a popular novel https://subverse.substack.com/p/when-you-dont-enjoy-a-popular-novel
Crime and Punishment was a slow, plodding burn for me. Ultimately glad I finished it as I feel like that was very intentional pacing by Dostoevsky, and I felt I really got into the mind of a criminal going mad.
Really want to try Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell (did I get that right?), but I’m just in no mood for a tome of any sort. Reading James now and loving it.
I'm stuck 30% into Crime and Punishment and I WILL go back to it, probably after Middlemarch. Jonathan Strange will be there whenever you feel the pull - i recommend in the winter when the nights are long - glad to hear you are loving James its spectacular !
C&P after Middlemarch sounds like its own version of crime and punishment 🫣😂. Good call on Jonathan Strange as a winter read.
I might not have finished The Golden Notebook by Doris Lessing (a classic; long) if not for a book club deadline and I was very, very glad I did. One of those books that accumulates meaning and enjoyment slowly. A BIG book.
Accumulates meaning and enjoyment yes!!
I’d say some of the writing that hardest for me is from Alice Munro or Mavis Gallant. There are these vignettes of normal, everyday life which feel quietly devastating… I see the arch of a life and feel completely overwhelmed. Sometimes I have to put the book aside for a time because it’s too piercing
that is a special kind of difficult - the emotional ones
I loved the wind to bird chronicle but I think your description is spot on— fragmented, disembodied at times. Yet the dream-like elements are counterbalanced by extremely visceral scenes like the man skinned alive. I had never thought of the book as “terrifying” before but now that you say it, it feels true.
Do you have any other rec’s for books in this realm? I’ve read a lot of Murakami and some Yoko Ogawa. I also like Marquez and Allende. But I have not been reading much lately… it’s been years since I was really immersed in a good book. I am looking for some inspiration
Another favorite is David Mitchell - he’s less violent but right in the same vein. Cloud Atlas is his most famous, probably the most similar and very good. I’ve also seen Murakami compared to Ozeki but I haven’t read her yet!
Thank you for your suggestions ☺️! Haven’t read these authors but I’m going to look into them
tomorrow x 3 being not enjoyable is a wild choice (I type this respectfully), I loved that book! but I do agree it didn't challenge me to grow/think - my experience was contained to the time I was reading the book. What didn't you like about it?
I actually wrote a piece on this - when you don't enjoy a popular novel, because I needed to work through my feelings about it! For whatever reason, it didn't move me, the characters felt two-dimensional, and sad in a way that was unearned. I've come to realize (thanks to John Warner on Substack) that I don't like a lot of upmarket fiction because it doesn't get deep enough to be literary fiction, or plot-forward enough to be genre fiction - sometimes it's a weird middle ground that is committed to neither and I'm uncomfortable there. Totally see why its a favorite though, the video game angle was very unique! As a 90s kid I appreciated that part
https://subverse.substack.com/p/when-you-dont-enjoy-a-popular-novel
https://biblioracle.substack.com/p/when-upmarket-fiction-doesnt-work?utm_source=publication-search
thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! I was just about to ask you if you had written anything on why you don't like upmarket fiction, I'm excited to read your article! I don't think the characters are very two dimensional in Tx3 (I wonder how you feel about A Little Life if you think their sadness was unearned - I couldn't get up from my bed after reading it) I think there was something about the characters that felt naïve in the story though but I found this quite comforting. And yes, totally agreed for the video game aspect!
You've got me thinking so hard here, but it has been a while since I've read it!
I didn't understand their motivations in Tx3. Like in Normal People, I knew why Marianne and Connell did what they did. This quote “Marianne had the sense that her real life was happening somewhere very far away, happening without her, and she didn’t know if she would ever find out where it was and become part of it.” or: “We could be in a room full of people and my eyes would always meet his, just to find that he had already been looking.” I FEEL that.
A lot of the passages in Tx3 were more vague, generalized like this one, not internalized: “Long relationships might be richer, but relatively brief, relatively uncomplicated encounters with interesting people could be lovely as well. Every person you knew, every person you loved, even, did not have to consume you for the time to have been worthwhile.” Or: “Why wouldn’t you tell someone you loved them? Once you loved someone, you repeated it until they were tired of hearing it. You said it until it ceased to have meaning. Why not? Of course, you goddamn did.” This is clearly a generalized argument itself, and I am choosing passages that support my argument, but after scanning quotes in Goodreads, it feels representative.
A Little Life, on the other hand, we were SO deep in their heads and lives, it was like a toxic relationship. I'm not sure anything can be compared to the experience of reading that novel lol. 😯
Thanks for chatting deep into books with me!
What a great post, you really made me start looking at certain books differently! I've had to teach myself to DNF books, as I would usually push myself through them no matter what - but there is a balance to it, and some books might be worth that extra struggle ✨
its a hard line but I know the ones that are actually difficult - as opposed to just not good - are usually worth it :)
This was fantastic. Jonathan Strange is one of my all-time favorite books.
thank you and me too, the most unique thing I have ever read!